I know why Mathematicians weep

(derekthompson.org)

67 points | by RickJWagner 1 hour ago

30 comments

  • vatsachak 29 minutes ago
    Hacker News is so depressing these days. One doomer post per day to keep the valuations up.

    Nothing has changed in math. Math is not solved nor has the human been kicked out of the loop. Same with programming.

    *I said nothing really changed because LLMs becoming superhuman at deduction was priced in with o3 and neither the peer review, training nor publishing methods will get a revamp beyond what could already be done with SQLite and a website.

    • FLeXMurphy 1 minute ago
      I found it amusing the one time that I've seen dang recently steer a thread and actively participate was in a complete one-off on Sino cultural standards (and the perception thereof). To me it almost seemed like he was issuing a threat because, amusingly, I thought, Xi's minions are watching.

      The "moderation by less", as well as the guidelines, are both farcical in nature. They've given way to ruination of an otherwise decent tech discussion forum (or news aggregator, or YC propaganda machine or whatever you want to call it).

      If you want actual discussion around things, lobsters, awful or even 4chan are better than HN.

    • jrmg 27 minutes ago
      I’m on your side on this overall, I think. And I suspect we’d agree more than disagree on nuances. But saying that ‘nothing has changed’ is very obviously wrong.
      • vatsachak 11 minutes ago
        I guess I chose the words "nothing has changed" because that's true relative to all the subtext of content I'm seeing online claiming that "math is solved"
      • skydhash 21 minutes ago
        I agree with "nothing has changed" in practical terms. If you take a look around most things rely on an undergraduate level of math than whatever is at the frontier. The proofs may be important, but they are really remote to people's lives.
    • d0liver 22 minutes ago
      The fear is the sales pitch. AI has some uses but nowhere near enough to justify the price tag, so we need something more to sell it.
    • nemo44x 5 minutes ago
      It's probably because with the release of each model it is becoming more and more difficult to see how a person's livelihood and way of life continues. Uncertainty stacked on uncertainty.

      How will it pan out, no one really knows. The leading frontier labs are continuing to hire aggressively. But who knows for how long or for long or near-term goals.

      • vatsachak 1 minute ago
        The open ai math dump was actually what got me off the singularity wagon.

        There were mistakes that could easily be seen with a diagram rendering three big results wrong, exposition is terrible, no coherent underlying theory generated from solving so many problems, as Thomas Bloom pointed out even duplicate proofs of the same statement in a single paper r.

        It clicked for me, "this is slop but slop can be superhuman and useful!". Similar to programming where it can generate as many criticisms of your codebase but you have to weed them out.

    • howunfortunate 22 minutes ago
      I'm sorry, but "nothing has changed in math" is a truly ridiculous statement.

      Sure, there are people who overstate things. But that isn't an excuse to keep your head in the sand.

    • simianwords 24 minutes ago
      yeah nothing changed in math. mathematicians are weeping for some strange reason (maybe paid by OpenAI to weep?). And Terry Tao is posting blogs on AI + Mathematics because he was bored (or because he was also paid by OpenAI).
      • vatsachak 16 minutes ago
        They are overreacting imo. A lot of mathematicians stuck their head in the sand with o3 but this was the logical outcome; superhuman deduction
        • simianwords 6 minutes ago
          Disagree, there are in fact documented cases.

          > I think I have been underrating the pace of model improvements. In March 2025 I made a bet with Tamay Besiroglu, cofounder of RL environment company Mechanize, that AI tools would not be able to autonomously produce papers I judge to be at a level comparable to that of the best few papers published in 2025, at comparable cost to human experts, by 2030. I gave him 3:1 odds at the time; I now expect to lose this bet.

          https://www.daniellitt.com/blog/2026/2/20/mathematics-in-the...

          “I’ve slowly updated my timelines over the past year…”

          and

          “I think I have been underrating the pace of model improvements. … I was not correctly calibrated as to the capabilities of existing models, let alone near-future models.”

  • RGS1811 28 minutes ago
    This piece circles, without naming it, around the concept of “deontic scorekeeping” central to the work of Robert Brandom on semantics. The idea that our ability to create and sustain conceptual systems depends on the give and take of reasons within a social setting. Brandom has been front of mind for me lately because elements of his theory both explain why LLMs should work in principle, and where they are bound to be radically deficient. An LLM encodes the normative regularities of our linguistic/conceptual games into its weights, but it cannot be a real participant in our games because it is incapable of staking durable commitments or changing its dispositions over time.

    Worth reading: Robert Brandom, “Making It Explicit: Reasoning, Representing, and Discursive Commitment”

    • NooneAtAll3 17 minutes ago
      tbf naming something "deontic" is not helpful
      • RGS1811 2 minutes ago
        The irony of complaining about an academic jargon word in a thread about mathematicians.
    • simianwords 22 minutes ago
      I don't think that's true. Why is it that I see more people using "shaped" and "load bearing"?
      • RGS1811 16 minutes ago
        Because language is mimetic, and people are consuming huge quantities of AI-generated text. I.e. saying that an LLM can't be an equal participant in our language games isn't saying that it can't play by the rules. In fact that's what LLMs are trained to be best at.

        What an LLM can't do (at least with the current architecture) is sustain a commitment that it can be held accountable for later. It doesn't have durable "perspective". It can't update its priors. Maybe a new architecture will come along that gives LLMs memory plasticity, at which point they will shift into being individuated quasi-persons, but that's not what we've got now.

        I've written some about this here, if you're interested: https://elliotmilco.substack.com/p/deontic-scorekeeping-comm...

        • itsalwaysgood 3 minutes ago
          You don't consider recursive self-improvement a step towards 'updating a perspective'?

          I think you are also suggesting Mathematics and Language are the same thing.

      • itsalwaysgood 19 minutes ago
        It would only be true if you consider Mathematics and Language to be the same thing.

        Both depend on Logic, which is where "deontic scorekeeping" where you can only establish something is true and believable by 'keeping score' and having some level of understanding about the language or math you are reading.

        The article is mostly referring to the connection that comes from shared understanding between humans, particularly mathematicians, as they build new shared understanding, and realize there are limits to what they can know and 'leave behind' logic for others to pick up and carry on.

        That connection has been severed, or strained a bit, but I'm sure new ones will be created. It just might be of the same flavor that mathematicians prefer, therefore they weep.

        And if I understand "deontic scorekeeping" correctly, these forums are a better representation of the concept. You will lend some amount of belief to what is said/read based on what you know.

  • randcraw 17 minutes ago
    I think Thompson has no understanding of endeavors like pure math or the theoretical sciences. In the words of Einstein, "I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts; the rest [is] just details."

    I think mathematicians aren't bemoaning their lost sunk costs. They're now aware that they may never again have the joy of being the first to pull up the edge of the tarp of ignorance and see the raw truth beneath _for the first time_. Their voyages of discovery, which give life meaning, may never leave dry dock again.

  • nsagent 6 minutes ago
    I remember the same doom cycle during my PhD when GPT 4 came out [1,2]. It seemed like everyone in NLP was freaking out except me. A few years later and new CS PhDs are still graduating and joining academia and industry. Much ado about nothing.

    Considering I currently live in Ithaca and have a friend doing a Math PhD, so I've heard from him some of the discussions in the department. I think the biggest shock for people is that individuals spent significant portions of their time on some of the problems that OpenAI supposedly solved (I say supposedly because all of the proofs have yet to be independently vetted). I understand that it's a shock, but I'm confident that in time it will be no more of a blip than it was for NLP.

    [1]: https://xxcancel.com/mayhewsw/status/1636476184098643968

    [2]: https://xxcancel.com/andriy_mulyar/status/163613925780582809...

  • izzydata 33 minutes ago
    I still think mathematicians are going to be as important as ever. The LLMs are only finding what was technically possible given our current breadth of knowledge after brute force solving problems. Eventually it will run out of things that it can do with its training and the only way to get it to do more will be training it on new human found knowledge.

    Finding that new knowledge may be exponentially more difficult, but it will be much more valuable.

    • FabHK 18 minutes ago
      > Eventually it will run out of things that it can do with its training and the only way to get it to do more will be training it on new human found knowledge.

      How do you know this?

    • antves 29 minutes ago
      this is assuming that humans can be original in ways llms won't be, which I doubt will hold true
    • fantasizr 24 minutes ago
      aren't mathematicians needed to create the problems? Everything solved so far is a question posed by a human. Which is probably why cracking diseases is more difficult (apart from man made viruses :/)
    • d0liver 24 minutes ago
      Came here to say this. What AI is doing with math is essentially fuzzing, but looking for valid inputs that solve a problem and the inputs are mathematical abstractions. It's a cool approach, but AI doesn't understand what's going on, and without understanding it won't be able to create the next generation of mathematical abstractions needed for the next generation of proofs.
  • silverFork 7 minutes ago
    Mathematicians are smart enough to have figured out which way is up. You can debate the stuff outside someone's field not knowing the details but the insiders know what is happening. Ai may not be better than someone with very specific knowledge at this point but it is certainly better than the net. Once it gets optimized for every little super human knowledge, it can do better.

    These guys know because they looked at it. Denying it is useless. But maybe some of these guys can figure something new using it and asking it to look for it.

  • progforlyfe 16 minutes ago
    I need to do some more research on this. Because I've always been told that AI, more specifically LLMs, are "glorified autocompletes". Yes they have huge data sets but ultimately they can only provide answers based on data that they were trained on.

    So how can they possibly solve problems that humans have worked for decades or centuries on without being able to solve? How did they find something new? Is it that they were able to deduce the solution by examining all current data sets? Or simply brute force it until the produced solution passed all necessary tests?

    • KerrAvon 5 minutes ago
      > Is it that they were able to deduce the solution by examining all current data sets? Or simply brute force it until the produced solution passed all necessary tests?

      Yes, both of these + an infinite token/compute budget and SOTA+ models. It's not like some hobbyist out in the woods with a GPU running Qwen 27B can do this.

  • ehhthing 31 minutes ago
    I'm convinced the people who do not see what Mathematicians see simply have not considered that their jobs are just as vulnerable. The day when OpenAI replaces their own AI researchers with GPT will be upon us, and the response from the Mathematicians will be "First time?"
  • SiempreViernes 42 minutes ago
    Even if this was overly long and mostly things I've seen before, I'm just very thankful that it wasn't yet another claude piece.
    • A_D_E_P_T 38 minutes ago
      There was an interesting passage in the article:

      > Today, the mathematicians are weeping, because the machine smashed their tower first. But tomorrow, it may be the physicists, the economists, the illustrators, or the writers who weep over their fallen blocks.

      Isn't it extraordinary that these models still can't write well? I mean, they write passably well, but they all have a highly characteristic style that you can spot from a mile away. These language models can crack the toughest open problems in math, but they haven't yet cracked human-like writing, especially long-form writing, without exposing themselves. This is very very odd, IMO.

      • mr_mitm 14 minutes ago
        You can just tell them to adopt a different style. To make sure, add another pass with an agent that flags and/or fixes LLM tics. Humans typically do several passes over writings that they intend to publish, why are we expecting agents to do it in one shot? Just like the superpowers skill for software development does a spec phase, planning phase, several review rounds, etc., if you do the same with writing you get very passable results.
      • MarkusQ 24 minutes ago
        Or, just maybe, they share a key property with the mounds of popular writing, journalism and random internet accretions they were trained on: they seem total rubbish on anything you know about deeply, but brilliant on everything else.

        Their math is as just as good as their rambling writing and their Ghiblified poster art. Most people don't seem to realize that.

        • Kiln6125 8 minutes ago
          The difference here obviously being that the part that you mention is more embedded in the proofs (long and difficult and near-hallucinatory) but the results that matter are that the proofs are correct and validated. So I think you're failing to account for that, the problem for math is that the journey matters less than the destination.
      • arctic-true 29 minutes ago
        Writing is a very slippery thing. “Good” writing from 200 years ago reads as unbelievably dense and overwrought to most people today. So even if you made an LLM that was “good” at writing, how long would it stay that way? AI systems can put out more writing per day than all of humanity combined, meaning it can also generate and beat to death cliches much more efficiently.
      • mooreds 29 minutes ago
        > Today, the mathematicians are weeping, because the machine smashed their tower first.

        I read this passage and thought, "has Derek even talked to software developers"?

        That feels to me like the first discipline to go through this, where their daily activities are massively changed by GenAI.

        • KerrAvon 3 minutes ago
          No, tech writers have it much worse.
      • 317070 30 minutes ago
        Language models don't have a characteristic style you can spot from a mile away. They haven't had it since before ChatGPT.

        What is true, is that chat models (and by extension agents) have a very characteristic style after their LLM went through post-training. But the pre-trained language model doesn't have that style.

        So if you want to write well with an LLM, you could and it is a well understood problem. It is more a matter of that not being of much interest, as it competes with having the model be good for chat interfaces.

        How to have a well-aligned, RL'ed, safe or thinking model, which also writes well in long-form, is a bit an open problem. Though presumably agents could do it when they have access to a pretrained model.

      • user43928 35 minutes ago
        Makes me wonder whether it's a fundamental limitation of the technology or more like missing a good set of tasks in the training pipeline
        • qarl 30 minutes ago
          Might be that the vast majority of their training data is poor writing.
      • imeanwhatdoikno 31 minutes ago
        Gemini's (at least for Flash 3.6 - 3.8) writing feels quite "human" to me
      • QuesnayJr 29 minutes ago
        There's no money in it. There's money in programming, and math is a good target to give the models superhuman reasoning abilities, but it already writes well enough for middle managers to write all of their emails.
      • skydhash 27 minutes ago
        Math and programming languages are formal. Meaning they don't have any ambiguity in them. Every statement is what it is. That means they are very rigid and there's not a lot of variance. Natural languages are more diffuse and a written piece is more the reflection of the author than anything else.

        That is why it's so disturbing. After several paragraphs, you realize there's nothing human there even when the actual information is present. People that do create AI piece are OK with it because they already have the context, but for the reader, it's always the uncanny valley.

  • omnicognate 40 minutes ago
    I happen to be (re)reading Strogatz' book "Nonlinear Dynamics and Chaos" right now. It's beautiful thing, and nothing in the "age of AI" threatens to equal it or in any way diminish my enjoyment of it.
    • Ectiseethe 32 minutes ago
      I think the point is that in the "age of AI" virtually nobody will have the opportunity to follow a career and produce works like Strogatz was able to do.
  • curt15 27 minutes ago
    When anyone can push a button on a machine and out comes a math result, it still doesn't become theirs or anyone else's until they can internalize it and make it part of their thinking.
    • kraquepype 14 minutes ago
      "I can’t solve these things, but maybe you people in the future can stand on my shoulders."

      Seeing AI being lauded for solving problems like this makes me feel... uncomfortable.

      We are feeding all works of the giants that we have all stood on into a huge vat, in the hope to generate something meaningful.

      If we can't understand the output, internalize it, or build from the time and experience that a human would have gained from solving the same problem, it feels like a dead end.

      When all the problems have been "solved" by AI, what's next? If humans no longer struggle to solve the problems that the previous generation have left behind, how do we progress?

  • flowerlad 30 minutes ago
    As a software engineer it is hard for me to feel sorry for these mathematicians. Software engineers are getting laid off because of advancements made by AI. Math researchers are employed at universities, and universities aren't laying off mathematicians now that OpenAI has solved some of their puzzles. Mathematicians can still feed their families, software engineers displaced by AI can't. Yet I see far more of these blogs about the plight of mathematicians, not enough about the plight of software engineers.
    • max_streese 21 minutes ago
      To me this goes in the same direction as people not feeling sorry for software developers because our job is supposedly automating the job of other people (which I don't think describes the profession accurately as a whole at all).

      Neither sits right with me. Can't we just all collectively acknowledge that we have to grapple with this new piece of technology that either is already or at least seems to be going to be hurtful to a lot of individuals?

      Instead of looking at the in comparison limited group of people currently pushing this technology and asking ourselves whether we should be on board with their doing, we look to one another and are happy that someone else is now suffering just the same as we are. What a sad state of affairs.

    • curt15 24 minutes ago
      > Software engineers are getting laid off because of advancements made by AI.

      The bean counters laying off software engineers ought to take notes from the frontier labs' own hiring practices. They're still hiring lots of humans for business and engineering roles even when they would be better positioned than anyone to automate away those jobs with their world-class models (https://openai.com/careers/search/).

    • pixl97 25 minutes ago
      It's not about universities, it's about grant funding over the next few years. It is very apt to collapse if AI is more useful than people. Why pay people to find this when tokens will do instead.
      • curt15 23 minutes ago
        Who will continue to develop neural nets if the mathematics training pipeline dries up? Will we see the frontier labs relinquish AI research to the machines themselves while their humans apply for unemployment benefits?
      • flowerlad 22 minutes ago
        Who has been funding grants, and do you really think the grants are going to stop? There are infinite number of puzzles in Mathematics. The grants are not from companies like Boeing and Walmart who urgently need solutions for the problems, if they were I can understand why they might stop.
    • loglog 12 minutes ago
      Software engineers are getting laid off because of the end of zero interest rates, wars started by Putin and Trump, and a bit because of pandemic over hiring. The part that is due to AI is less hiring of juniors. Know your enemy before starting a fight.
  • sys32768 13 minutes ago
    Mathematicians are grieving the birth of something that is, in a very real sense, the crowning achievement of mathematical ingenuity.

    I never appreciated hard math much because my brain just can't get there. I thought so much of math was much ado about nothing, but now I see the art in math...not in the inscrutable formulas, but in the creation of AI.

    Well done, mathematicians. You can now rest from your labors.

  • bel8 18 minutes ago
    My friend, who is a math professor, told me that they weep because they are about to become just like us developers: prompt writers and AI output reviewers.
    • aleph_minus_one 10 minutes ago
      > My friend, who is a math professor, told me that they weep because they are about to become just like us developers: prompt writers and AI output reviewers.

      If it was about understanding interesting proofs that some AI came up with, and extracting their essence, I don't think the situation would be so bad.

      I see the much larger problem in the now existing career prospects of non-tenured researchers in mathematics. Everybody know how precarious the career prospects in academia and how precarious often the non-tenured positions in academia already are. With the new AI breakthroughs in math, these have in my opinion even worsened a lot.

      UPDATE: For a related point, see also pixl97's post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50104145

  • ThrowawayR2 5 minutes ago
    [delayed]
  • prplfsh 23 minutes ago
    I'm wondering if mathematicians are sort of going through what programmers have been going through recently, really questioning whether their craft can continue. But now it feels like, in the software world, at least from my seat, people can handle much larger scope and work on much more complex problems. If anything, my job has gotten a lot _more_ interesting.

    So I wonder if mathematics will go through that too? A period of chaos and doubt, but finding new and more effective ways of working.

  • zeroonetwothree 41 minutes ago
    As a programmer I’ve been ‘weeping’ for a few years now.
    • ActionHank 29 minutes ago
      Programmers, artists, anyone who used to create any form of documentation, translators, there are literally so many.

      Either these mathematicians thought it would never come for their jobs, because all of these other jobs were simpler or they've been living under a rock.

      Either way, I don't feel for them any more than I do for all of humanity.

  • dandaka 10 minutes ago
    If understanding is so important and AI systems can only produce knowledge. Why can't mathematicians continue their work on better understanding?
  • bananaflag 46 minutes ago
    As a mathematician, I will never understand how my colleagues had never foreseen this. Okay, maybe you can believe in a plateau but at least accept as a possibility that there won't be one. This applies to every other human endeavour.

    I am also sad, but my sadness is, in a way, priced in.

    • Lambdanaut 44 minutes ago
      I saw it coming since reading Kurzweil in high school and it's still heavy.

      I just had a chance to flinch first.

      • qarl 25 minutes ago
        This is it.

        The people struggling right now - they were told. 30 years ago. They really should have come to terms with it by now.

        But these are also the people who refused to believe it, for whatever reason. Their heads were in the sand. So I do feel bad for them... but... this is somewhat self inflicted.

    • QuesnayJr 33 minutes ago
      It was really quick. I stumbled across a comment from KConrad on MathOverflow on how useless AI was for research. That comment was from 2024. When it disproved the unit distance conjecture in May, the solution involved a breath of knowledge of the literature that it made sense it took a computer to make the connection. It only took 5 months for it to advance to the point that it was better than humans at almost everything. Even if you expected it, the mind boggles at how fast it was.

      Also, it's impossible to really know how you're going to react to something until it happens to you. When ChatGPT came out, I already thought "in the long run they're going to automate almost everything humans love to do". Despite having 4 years to brood about it, I did not really know what it would feel like until it happened to me directly.

      • qarl 29 minutes ago
        > It was really quick.

        That's how the singularity works. It's going to keep getting quicker, incomprehensibly so.

  • euthymiclabs 30 minutes ago
    I love that we have new ways to solve problems. And it's been hard to accept that my own unique intelligence—which I've spent decades cultivating—just isn't as important as it used to be. I am developing new ways of thinking to better adapt to an AI-enhanced world, but I'm not done with the mourning process. We're all finding our way through this.
  • Kalendermann 23 minutes ago
    Getting those fields wiped just shows how unnecessary those fields where in the first place. I'm a programmer. I am the adapter between a stakeholder and a machine. I am just needed because the stakeholder lacks the knowledge to tell the machine what he wants. If he can use this new fancy adapter called Agentic AI now I happily quit my job and go on finding something that makes more sense in the first place.

    The same goes for math.

    Let's find some things that bring value other than just the price of a stock.

  • simianwords 25 minutes ago
    I strongly feel most angst is because Mathematics has become yet another capital intensive game to play. Rather than a noble, purely intellectual practice.
  • cgearhart 30 minutes ago
    I still remain hopeful that this is a step change in capability and capacity that we can adopt and adapt towards our own purposes. What was taking decades for us to do has been reduced to days and dollars. So while we’re witnessing a forest fire consuming entire fields of open problems in math, the best upside would be finding new problems that come from learning how to work with the new tools.

    This is what it seems like so far for software. The speed limit has changed. It’s interesting to explore what that means. Extending the analogy, long ago you could be a race car driver part time; that would be pretty laughable for an F1 driver. It’s a very specialized skill and the optimal athlete is quite different for driving a car than for running, for example. That feels like what I’m seeing in software.

    The most effective folks are much faster and better with these tools than average. It’s a different skill set.

    I think that formal verification makes Math much closer to code than many other fields. But I’m eager to see the first mathematicians that are dramatically more proficient with the new tools than average.

  • qarl 31 minutes ago
    > “They have annihilated my field of research.”

    I think they might find comfort in knowing it's not just mathematicians - this is coming for all of us. Computers putting us out of work has been coming for a long long time.... and now it's here.

  • kryogen1c 32 minutes ago
    > Think about a world where non-mathematicians leapfrog the field after a few AI prompts. It would be a world with more knowledge. But it might be a world with less understanding.

    This seems like a good summary of the article, and I think the answer here is obvious.

    So what?

    News flash folks: we do not have the knowledge to survive on our own. If a solar flare deletes the electric grid, the first thing that happens is 8 billion people die in the next year.

    We survive on abstractions others have built, and we have a global dependency web.

    AI abstracting knowledge is neither new or dangerous; if it is dangerous, this certainly isnt the argument to prove it.

  • HPsquared 34 minutes ago
    "I know now why you cry." - Terminator
  • bowsamic 31 minutes ago
    I have little sympathy, since I think it is a result of many decades of complacency when it comes to thinking about why want to people do what they do and instead just enjoying being the ones with the results and money. People who love the process and see the human as inherently valuable won't have a problem. I'm more shocked that there are so many brilliant people who are so results-oriented and don't even have a concept of value outside of that. I'm kind of disgusted by the tears actually
    • randcraw 26 minutes ago
      Your loved ones have replaced you with more agreeable robots. Now no one cares whether you live or die.

      Still disgusted?

      • bowsamic 22 minutes ago
        Anyone who would replace me with a robot never loved me anyway. If that happened I would go and seek out the humans who really do care, and take solace in the fact that Christ will always love me
  • mycall 26 minutes ago
    [flagged]
  • marketgarden 40 minutes ago
    ahem
  • sdcfgy 43 minutes ago
    I weep because the money was bad.